00:00:06: A heartfelt welcome back to our loyal listeners and a shy hello, any new pair of ears for the first episode of Reject & Resubmit.

00:00:14: A podcast formerly known as Desk Reject.

00:00:16: der PhD Casts With you on the ones-and-twos today are assistant professor Philipp Becker all the way from Jutrecht.

00:00:23: Hi!

00:00:25: Assistant Professor Marco Ljanderrapp From Amsterdam.

00:00:29: Good evening.

00:00:30: And myself Alexander Staup Broadcasting To You from Barcelona.

00:00:36: A new team of hosts means we will also be introducing a completely new revolutionary format where each week, uh... Each one of us will bring a topic of discussion around academia life and theory.

00:00:53: And beyond that We'll be kicking things off today with the main part for every episode.

00:01:03: And today, I would like to know how.

00:01:08: what are things that really just ruin your day?

00:01:12: Like the small things that matter in particular.

00:01:15: I'd like to Know What Are Some Things That Annoy You To An Irrational Extent Like When Philip Starts Hyperventilating when you tell him that socialism doesn't work and things things like that.

00:01:27: Your information about my political stance is i think three three two five years old.

00:01:32: Oh, you finally seen the lights.

00:01:36: I'm very happy

00:01:39: to hear what drives me nuts?

00:01:41: Uh uh i would say if people pronounce words in English wrong but so consistently that within for example German speaking community it became a new word Hypothesis, hypothesis.

00:02:09: I think it is super annoying to correct people because many believe that this actually how it's pronounced are very advanced in their career and they do not want the person after ten or fifteen years within academia tell them its not the wrong pronunciation But it always, let's say grinds my gears a little bit.

00:02:29: That so funny because I already thought of the next discussion topic and It was gonna be language related.

00:02:36: like what are things people say that annoy you?

00:02:38: And i was going to say The thing that really really pisses me off is when People correct Things some obscure grammatical error, but everybody knows what you mean.

00:02:51: Like if I tell ya like hey can you grab this for me?

00:02:55: And then they go...I

00:02:56: don't

00:02:56: know!

00:02:57: Can

00:02:57: i?!

00:02:58: and just want to drop kick them in the face.

00:02:59: But

00:02:59: that's Sifford right.

00:03:00: there is an idea of..you know how it is used but hypothesis was just thought of as pronounced in a language.

00:03:07: There

00:03:08: was another one called Symedia which I had heard quite alot.

00:03:14: There are a few.

00:03:17: On the other hand, I find it charming if people rely on their native accent a little bit.

00:03:27: Marco what about you?

00:03:29: Honestly for me... It's more about rather mundane things in life.

00:03:33: so usually start my day by grinding coffee and if i forgot to charge the scale that I use to

00:03:44: make coffee, and

00:03:46: it has like this three-bar power indication.

00:03:51: And i always know its the last

00:03:53: bar among the

00:03:54: edge!

00:03:54: When one day comes you are such an idiot.

00:03:58: why do you hurt yourself

00:04:00: so much?

00:04:02: This is usually a moment of despair but can hardly overcome because then im pretty sure my coffee will not be as good.

00:04:13: i'm very bad and intuitively waiting for way things.

00:04:17: that is such a thirty plus year old white boy.

00:04:24: For anybody that like hasn't doesn't know what we look like an only lessons to us.

00:04:29: you have now perfect picture of Marco no matter what you imagine,

00:04:33: Says the guy who speaks into a microphone and hosts the podcast

00:04:38: of The White Boy Things To Do.

00:04:42: We're just collecting all the stamps in our book.

00:04:47: For me it's, I don't know why but It doesn't happen thank god that much anymore.

00:04:55: When i walk...I'm In A Rush And I Walk Out The Door.

00:05:00: Something Catches In The Door Handle Like it used to be cord, corded headphones.

00:05:06: Now sometimes it might be like a... It really happens rarely but it might my backpack or my sleeve But I would go into rage and just absolutely want to destroy that door's life And all its family members.

00:05:23: was Just-it was..I don't know why?

00:05:26: It feels like someone at the bar is yanking you As you're exiting is like it's just really to do a really unreasonable degree makes me extremely angry and i just wanna hurt her that inanimate object so badly.

00:05:44: How long will carry the anger with u?

00:05:48: It's it's like brief in scary, Like I turn into like a for like half a second.

00:05:54: yeah exactly just turned green and just completely you know lose my temper.

00:05:58: And then i calm down, My soul enters back into my body again.

00:06:08: But it's scary, like I

00:06:09: scare myself.

00:06:10: After a brief forty-eight hours?

00:06:11: Yeah

00:06:11: exactly!

00:06:14: I wake up naked in different city...

00:06:17: In the court field!

00:06:19: Covered in blood.

00:06:21: and then there are

00:06:22: doors

00:06:23: all around you.

00:06:24: Exactly!

00:06:26: Wood splinters in my mouth.

00:06:30: OK, now that we've covered the main topic.

00:06:36: We can dive into the side topics for short rest of this episode and I'm just going to decide... We'll start with Philip.

00:06:49: Thank

00:06:51: you!

00:06:51: What's your name?

00:06:54: Yeah,

00:06:55: so I start with a lighthearted topic in the category of live.

00:07:00: So we want to talk little bit about how life intersects with our work and one drips into another.

00:07:11: thing that happened for me is it's Let's say a more challenging topic is what happens if life events surrounding work and that are challenging.

00:07:22: For example, death of family member or someone has to take over care work?

00:07:27: How do we deal with that?

00:07:28: so I had last semester multiple situations where parents or students died.

00:07:34: obviously there was yeah i don't know why but actually literally multiple And I felt a little bit overwhelmed, because on the one hand was very happy that they shared it with me.

00:07:47: On the other hand i had to support them at least in the role as their teacher but also obviously missed deadlines and i have to uphold rules of this system for some time now a little bit, to remain fair to the system but also help them obviously in this small capacity that I have.

00:08:12: So how do you think about it?

00:08:15: What is our responsibility in such situation and should we try to separate that clearly from us or on them?

00:08:24: How can we help If someone either is a student or as a colleague goes through one of these more challenging life events,

00:08:33: I mean it's no.

00:08:38: Save me before I say something

00:08:40: stupid.

00:08:40: Let's ask the psychologists first.

00:08:43: then Good idea, yeah Yeah honestly i think it was important not to overstep boundaries and also professional boundaries in many regards.

00:08:52: So last year a student of mine died And this was a big shock for everyone.

00:08:56: In my course I spent at least four or five days Deliberating what is best.

00:09:07: Yeah, I mean first and foremost.

00:09:09: I felt like saying nothing is not the right thing.

00:09:13: However... ...I'm not a therapist although in psychology this is super field that i have zero to none clues about.

00:09:25: so yeah to me it was all about open communication then pointing them towards support structures that universities usually have at place.

00:09:36: To be fair, I pre-tested things just to be sure that i can also make a claim.

00:09:41: That you will be helped.

00:09:42: so I kind of logged in and clicked my way through this rather tedious clicking scheme.

00:09:49: but then uh... In five or ten minutes ahead ...I could call someone directly um.. And there I felt also comfortable.

00:09:57: yeah

00:09:58: telling the students hey if you actually want to talk with someone This is the line!

00:10:05: And similarly to your case, Philip I think or at least in Amsterdam.

00:10:11: Every student has a student advisor which is odd.

00:10:14: sometimes i feel like they have more student advisors than students.

00:10:18: Usually there are the persons who take care of these sorts things and try my best to accommodate all this issues You also want be furthered into their system In other instances too.

00:10:34: I guess it's also about open communication with the students.

00:10:37: So hey, i know its a hard situation but maybe focus on this situation then and we will figure things out in our next iteration of course or go for the reset And there can only be kind of friendly advisor.

00:10:55: But yeah...I think that is basically my sentiment Pointing towards the right direction and being as transparent, open and approachable in these sorts of situations.

00:11:06: As I can be without overstepping too

00:11:11: many boundaries has a tricky one?

00:11:12: It's like such an edge case... I wonder if there should be some kind of playbook beyond what you said Marco.

00:11:24: it was just where is the line?

00:11:28: And and then you know be human about it.

00:11:31: Um, You know what's its?

00:11:34: I don't because it depends.

00:11:35: i mean there is that six extreme situation like one of your students passes away which is terrible um and but uh-and Then there are a lot of gray areas between that.

00:11:47: when Philip in his case when the students come say they've had this personal tragedy Yeah, I think.

00:11:57: You just have to be sufficiently human empathetic and then make sure you're not trying to offer any advice in terms of being their counsel or something here at this other.

00:12:15: there's also a... There is no necessarily individual student counselors but they implemented like space where students can go get free counseling which is really like set up, you know?

00:12:30: Like a university therapist or multiple of those.

00:12:36: And I think that's really important.

00:12:39: in Manchester they had counselors as well and also...I don't know maybe it was personal but i wonder how many students could Fall into this perception that you as a lecturer Would even have that role of a counselor?

00:13:03: right like me is the student.

00:13:06: if something terrible happened in my life I don't know that i would You, no approach necessarily elector and say hey please help.

00:13:16: Me anyway Like i dont how to deal with it so we'd be more matter-of.

00:13:19: look Something terrible happened to me.

00:13:23: Um, I'm dealing with it.

00:13:25: just think you know i would be great if there was some accommodations.

00:13:29: um But I wonder how many students really?

00:13:33: Would make the quote-unquote mistake to assume that you as a lecturer are also responsible for

00:13:39: yeah III think is uh maybe Typical student in the classroom.

00:13:45: This is less likely, but it might be that didn't happen to me But I can imagine that maybe a colleague or PhD student Or even a colleague on there under tenure track sees you a little bit as an emotional outlet.

00:13:57: right.

00:13:57: so too come to you and Yeah not drop but share Maybe too much of an emotional burden with you.

00:14:06: Do you think that?

00:14:07: There's also point where you can draw line In the sand and tell a person this kind of your issue to deal with.

00:14:16: How would you do it someone who oversteps the boundary in that direction?

00:14:21: I don't, well this is so hard because... It's difficult cause like its a colleague right and we dont wanna tell him or be like a robot say oh thats terrible here is phone number you can call but yeah

00:14:41: Remain human.

00:14:42: Yeah

00:14:43: kind of yeah, it's really That's that's not fun is never its Never.

00:14:52: It's never happened.

00:14:54: if it happened usually was with colleagues or somebody where already the Friendship basis was established.

00:14:59: and then I guess like if it's If it's beyond that There what no there?

00:15:03: Was a situation Where our colleague kind of opened up to me about a situation And i don't know.

00:15:08: but Like i felt because as a colleague I would adopt more of a, you know friends perspective because that's what the person needed right now.

00:15:18: i don't know however didn't plan long-term if that could have gone wrong You know?

00:15:24: I didn't planned in the sense of oh no What If Im quote unquote too supportive Right Now and all of sudden this Person you Know thinks im some kind Of like.

00:15:34: we've got This relationship Established Now.

00:15:37: Um, luckily didn't get that far.

00:15:38: Luckily this person luckily for all of us This person you know was just appreciative for the support and that was it.

00:15:46: but I You know like It could have gone Other ways as well And i didn't...I Just didn't consider That it Was more a spur-of-the moment thing.

00:15:55: um so yeah thats A tough one PHD students especially I think.

00:16:00: Where is this weird kind Of

00:16:02: Yeah dependency in certain?

00:16:04: What I want to share is one more advice, that it can go off a little bit when you rely on email communication.

00:16:11: So student of mine shared... Yeah!

00:16:16: To tell the story and try to make this as general possible someone shared that family member passed away and their emails was very short and very neutral.

00:16:28: so i assumed there were some more distant students And also replied in a similar neutral fashion informing the student that there are no special accommodations That can be made and due to the fact that someone did not show up too Testing event.

00:16:48: The person also failed, and this student was really mad with me and it also Stored up a few waves With all the student advisors got involved and so on and so forth and at.

00:17:01: the student felt deeply hurt by the lack of my empathy.

00:17:07: And to be honest, I can totally understand it because there was a very close family member.

00:17:12: so i completely misinterpreted communication in a sense and i think this dude expected way more understanding from my side but provide that based on the information or how I perceived her email.

00:17:27: So what i can share as a sentiment is to be little bit careful when emails come in because there could have been emotion under the hood, it's hard for you read an e-mail and then respond on level of empathy needed in this situation.

00:17:46: Could say

00:17:46: would've better just tell them You know, talk about this in person?

00:17:53: I think i would not have made the mistake if he or she spoke to me directly.

00:17:58: Would it be better just reply hey you wanna have a quick like let's discuss this via call or something ?

00:18:07: I think that would've been more effective.

00:18:09: but on the other hand... It felt very standard email of us trying

00:18:14: make a

00:18:17: case.

00:18:20: That's one takeaway for me.

00:18:25: But I also think these kind of instances are becoming more and more frequent, especially within our new job role as institutions we transfer to or international than back in the days right?

00:18:43: So you have a lot international students that don't have too many contacts within the country, so I feel like especially for them it's quite or they are way more likely to overshare and also seek such advice from someone.

00:18:59: And the same applies obviously to fellow colleagues who just move to The Netherlands as well and there seek some solidarity in a sense Yeah, something that at least I have never experienced before in this frequency.

00:19:18: And more opportunities for cultural disconnects.

00:19:21: concerning how much openness and empathy support is expected?

00:19:29: Right so...

00:19:31: yeah i was just thinking like also the colleague level of things I guess you just provide as much support is the person needs.

00:19:43: I think so too,

00:19:45: trying to think through okay where's a line here?

00:19:48: Given also what Marco said... You don't know this person may not really have anybody right now and need some support but it could be.

00:20:04: the right response would be to be as empathetic and supportive is possible in a first interaction.

00:20:10: And then kind of evaluate always this, it's just turning into dynamic which maybe I don't want than i should steer no way.

00:20:18: make clear like another therapist trickier things are more student or even supervisory roles where yeah probably best draw the lines in a way that still maintains empathy, but it's like clear look.

00:20:46: this is not kind of support relationship.

00:20:49: That can work.

00:20:51: so to conclude we give the absolute outlandish recommendation

00:21:01: Follow us.

00:21:01: Completely left field, and what a wonderful topic.

00:21:06: to start off the first episode.

00:21:08: just great work

00:21:09: I think.

00:21:10: i hand it To The Topic of Theory Which is I Think Alex

00:21:16: How dare you assume that You're allowed to Hand Anything?

00:21:20: The

00:21:23: Podcast Godfather.

00:21:26: yes okay yeah I'll take That.

00:21:28: And now from What I was wondering, so my topic is what we term in this podcast theory topic where it's more related to the research area of our lives.

00:21:43: And i was wondering and like to get your feedback on whether you think or what's your opinion that every let say good for something surprising or something that is not intuitive.

00:22:04: And I'm asking because every now and then, I go back to this article from Davis.

00:22:12: believe it or not?

00:22:12: I sometimes read an article in the This Is Interesting article.

00:22:28: one or two of the sixteen, or twenty.

00:22:30: Or whatever.

00:22:30: how many ways is described in there?

00:22:32: How to make you know an interesting article and this aspect of unintuitiveness kind of establishing something where the common belief is one way And your research has to show that it's not that way.

00:22:44: That's not necessarily doing The Article Justice but at least that's my...the way I feel like a lot of It is boiled down too are interpreted as okay.

00:22:55: You have try and make your research a little more surprising.

00:23:00: What's the non-intuitive thing about this?

00:23:02: Um, what do you think is that... Is that the right approach in everything you do?

00:23:06: kind of your aim should be when you're working on your work as like it has to be some nugget something in there which makes people feel like you've got a surprising finding.

00:23:19: Yeah, I think that there are two different perspectives to think about research in a sense.

00:23:23: Right?

00:23:24: So you can either have this Hegelian dialectic perspective of thesis antithesis right and then we try to get some new place through synthesis.

00:23:33: This is i think where We Are right now And this Is why we look Try To see one argument And then try to topple this argument or tried to disprove.

00:23:43: Disargument in the hope that this leads us too new knowledge, but there's a completely different perspective and is more of this Bayesian updating right?

00:23:52: But I think in a world where research so abundant uh...and The World Is So Noisy um..I Think It Just Feels More Intuitive For Humans to do this dialectic thing, where someone argues A and someone argues B. So I just wanted quickly for myself also contrast these two perspectives.

00:24:19: The more Bayesian approach would be more successful overall but it is deeply embedded in how we research that we have thesis, antithesis synthesis thinking.

00:24:32: Yeah, I think this is how it would start.

00:24:36: Marco are you Hegelian or are you Bayesian?

00:24:43: This question i try to avoid but overall what you said really resonates.

00:25:03: I don't know, i'm always kind of also annoyed by reading these papers with seven hypotheses.

00:25:15: All of them are confirmed and like yeah okay nice so something surprising is always a

00:25:21: good thing

00:25:23: it doesn't need to be... And surprising or new can be in the reader's eye.

00:25:29: right that a new measure works It's not surprising, but it might be surprising to read that there is a new measure for something like that.

00:25:38: So I don't know.

00:25:39: the other day my colleague introduced me to a measure of policy gas lighting

00:25:46: and

00:25:47: never

00:25:48: thought i would need such a measure!

00:25:49: I felt it was nice because yeah about how things like flexibility usually are kind Yeah, formalized in the policy.

00:26:03: However this policies not equally enforced across departments right or sometimes even within a department

00:26:09: differently

00:26:10: enforced on an employee level.

00:26:13: and I think having this concept and can being able to measure it is nice.

00:26:17: It's interesting so its super novel because i mean It could be something that relates to manipulation, right?

00:26:25: Could be something related to persuasion.

00:26:27: This is still interesting and it helps me think about the world in a different way And I think this is what I at least strive for.

00:26:39: instead of and we hamstringing ourselves.

00:26:41: i'm just gonna try and push this point like every ham stringing In general research if this is our If this is our guiding light like if we decide also like week i'm not even talking about but like as producers, what if this is a guiding light of the top journals.

00:26:58: You know, because we're also in a time maybe where at the same time that we want more interesting research.

00:27:07: There's people yelling about research not being reproduced and this quest for something surprising leads to p-hacking leads to people shelving a lot of research.

00:27:19: Well, I don't know.

00:27:23: There's zero findings or the findings that they have aren't interesting enough.

00:27:27: for example mean even in my projects like i get caught up and discussions where it's like yeah me so this is these are the findings but like you're gonna be you now don't we?

00:27:38: no don't.

00:27:38: isn't that too close to what we know already?

00:27:41: And then immediately You Have To Go on a quest For digging through The data and figuring out okay well how can We either frame this or find something where we can say, oh, you didn't expect that.

00:27:56: Do you agree that this could be a problem?

00:27:58: Or do think well it's not really and we should aim... It is good thing to aim for surprising.

00:28:05: just let the other research published elsewhere in non-prestigious journals.

00:28:13: I think the question little bit.

00:28:16: What is the research performance that you aim for?

00:28:21: Do you want to have a cumulative body of knowledge, which collectively is extremely powerful?

00:28:28: or do you want one idea that individually has a lot of potential.

00:28:38: Bayesian updating we have priors and we get closer to something that we could call truth.

00:28:43: I think it's extremely powerful as a body of knowledge, maybe one example where this was extremely successful is physics.

00:28:50: in the early twentieth century were really wants their building stone build on another day really collectively built up very strong body off knowledge.

00:28:59: but i think in social sciences This Is Not Really How It Works Right.

00:29:03: What We Provide the nugget of, this is interesting.

00:29:07: One tool that sticks out and helps a manager an agent policymaker to make one kind of decision more effectively right?

00:29:18: So this notion over collective body of knowledge?

00:29:21: I would argue it's less important in social science And This Is Also Why We Opt so Much For This Interesting In Order To Stick Out Of The Vastness.

00:29:32: What makes you say that?

00:29:33: Like where the hell is this assumption coming from, social sciences doesn't need a cumulative body of knowledge.

00:29:40: I could just as easily say it's huge crux.

00:29:45: we treat social science research one idea at time and maybe even go far as what brought us to all these nudge in behavioral economics fetishization, whereas like you know just slap a fly on the urinal and you'll get twenty percent less splash or just You Know instead of telling people they're going to get fired.

00:30:06: How about you call it?

00:30:08: Uh, you know personal development somewhere else.

00:30:13: I don't understand why would claim such thing.

00:30:21: I would say that okay, i'm trying to make a case here.

00:30:25: So sciences looks at the very broad messy construct right or reality of individuals working together living together in a very messy system.

00:30:36: so in order You have to hold a lot of things constant in order to look at something.

00:30:45: And when you hold things constantly, you can only look at the narrow subset or from a very narrow perspective onto the phenomena and this alone fractures research on societies organizations on firms into small different groups that try to hold things constant by assuming, for example more rational behavior or looking not an individual actor but at the whole market.

00:31:13: and these different lenses just lead naturally too strong fracturing of research.

00:31:21: You can still argue knowledge can be cumulative within any individual lens, but even there then you again reach a point where someone wants to relax an assumption or want to introduce something and other stuff breaks down.

00:31:39: So I think it's just in the nature of many emergent elements within society that makes it so hard to build coherent cumulative body of knowledge?

00:31:57: more.

00:31:57: but then i mean like i wanna say that i don't under i dont know if the premise that social systems are so much more complex than i dunno some other system and thats why we're chasing surprising rather them let's call it cumulative knowledge building.

00:32:14: But I don't know, like I can't really point to any other discipline and say look this is just as complex as a social system.

00:32:20: And they're you know pursuing cumulative rather than surprising knowledge?

00:32:23: Um...I dunno!

00:32:25: Just my hunches- I feel it's maybe also part of the reason why we are quote unquote stuck in social sciences.

00:32:35: Is that idea..and its not even more....the matter The big journals at least the management for example.

00:32:44: they kind of fetishize this.

00:32:45: surprisingness is unintuitiveness.

00:32:48: And so everybody kind of chases us.

00:32:50: we need a paper or research project that stands on its own legs, you know?

00:32:56: We provide new thing

00:33:00: but I don't... I would strongly disagree with what we are stuck!

00:33:07: in the nature of our research object that it is very hard to come to a point where knowledge truly cumulative.

00:33:16: I mean, let's take... Is this okay?

00:33:18: since psychology Marco?

00:33:19: Like what do you have any...?

00:33:21: You know like we're looking at from perspective management research maybe little bit economics for my side but also just not really an expert.

00:33:32: Do you agree with Philip Or do you think this is not the case?

00:33:43: Well, I have to admit that i'm not fully immersed in psychology discourse anymore.

00:33:49: Having said that or with this caveat ahead... ...I would A. Not fully think we are stuck and some ideas get further developed, refined especially on a theoretical lens.

00:34:00: Some methodological approaches gets way more sophisticated And I know for a couple of things, or most of us knows that some other thing we used to believe are just wrong.

00:34:11: Like the infamous example with the fly in toilet.

00:34:16: so... ...I think we still build upon eachother and do hypothesis testing right?

00:34:21: So..

00:34:22: In this regard i wouldn't say it's either or sometimes its both.

00:34:31: but Again having said that if you want to publish something highly, having something super intriguingly new is some always easier sell than I don't know.

00:34:44: Having and I hate these papers myself who are having a structure equation model or mediated media moderated mediation on moderated Mod doubly moderating the Asian or whatever because you like how to use how do we sell that to a practitioner?

00:34:58: Or how, uh-huh.

00:34:59: How did it make sense of a three way interaction?

00:35:01: so in this regard Yeah,

00:35:05: I mean let's I think that without what you brought up right now This just as little nugget off i still feel Like We're kind Of stuck In this.

00:35:13: I'm gonna say stuck again, but we're kind of wedged maybe or whatever in this In the schizophrenic situation where on one hand We want to be relevant too two practitioners and on the other hand.

00:35:25: We wanna Be you know relevant to some kind of scholarly theory And it's kind of trying to balance that tightrope which i don't know.

00:35:35: Maybe other fields are a bit A bit better at maneuvering Where where there's clear, you know I going back to a point.

00:35:47: I mean going back.

00:35:48: this is our first episode But that we discussed about these managerial contributions?

00:35:54: That was brings me back again This drive.

00:35:56: all we want to be surprised We wanna have like because practitioners are like goldfish and they don't care about what came before.

00:36:02: so he needs some Some kind of surprising some insight something that they can take the paper and run with.

00:36:09: And I wonder, like since recorded that i have not kind of perused many other feels to see if it's similar.

00:36:18: But thats maybe something that is...I wouldn't be surprised If That Is A Lot Of The Driver Of Why You Know This Drive To Produce Surprising Research In The Top Journals Is Kind Of Being Pursued

00:36:33: Now Definitely.

00:36:34: And One Of My Dearest Co-authors Brand, he's a sociologist and he always says we are applied science.

00:36:45: And every time you write together I feel like his writing is so far off my comprehensibility of my understanding in intellectual capabilities but still the right style yet super applied it really far-off theoretical lens and so on and so forth.

00:37:03: So I guess yeah as managerial or being part of business school You'll have this a more applied lens.

00:37:10: We don't think about how social systems interact or I don't know, thinking within the human brain works.

00:37:18: so having like a purpose in being kind of practitioner oriented and some regards even their practitioners.

00:37:29: we are the lunatics.

00:37:32: yeah no i think it is indeed a driver that makes

00:37:42: I try if we find it boring and move on, but what would be research that is not interesting?

00:37:48: And still highly important to do Alex.

00:37:54: Because my point wasn't the entire premise of... That's interesting.

00:37:58: Um, I think research should be interesting and i think Interesting meaning.

00:38:02: you know it doesn't have to be interesting to the world And I think that's not The point.

00:38:05: It's being made.

00:38:05: it should Be interesting too a particular field of researchers?

00:38:08: I was just taking You Know this one Of the aspects To make something interesting is to Make it surprising and That Was my My.

00:38:17: my premise Is like does every Not Does Every Research Have to be Interesting?

00:38:20: I Think Every you know.

00:38:22: I agree that it Should be interesting in the sense of you know You shouldn't Just Be Repeating If you want to be published.

00:38:28: well, there's a place for that.

00:38:30: But the new and path-breaking research should be interesting because more of the surprising aspect is like do have always think about if you wanna publish.

00:38:44: well let say top journal.

00:38:46: Is it good?

00:38:48: That we have to Always think about.

00:38:51: is this too intuitive or can put up some kind of straw man and then our findings are surprising in light of the strawman.

00:39:01: And to use this device all the time... To play

00:39:04: Devil's Atoket a little bit here, if your results are very intuitive This also means that we know it on a latent level right?

00:39:15: So knowing all the stuff you know having the feeling of intuitiveness means that we can through what you already know somewhat inferred.

00:39:26: So, the surprising element has to be on a level where... You have to convince me that I actually did not know or tell myself how this is so novel and interesting in something non-surprising?

00:39:45: But to be honest, I think we're criticizing a deeply human phenomena.

00:39:49: Namely that something... ...that we find surprising is interesting right?

00:39:56: Otherwise the value of information would just be lower!

00:40:01: And so i think it in a sense.. ..we are criticizing the manifestation of a deeply-human characteristic how research works.

00:40:12: and I get the problem.

00:40:14: If you

00:40:15: want to learn more about dopamine,

00:40:16: look into Neurosurgery.

00:40:18: Follow real researchers!

00:40:23: So now that we've found a definitive answer... And we all agree apparently on...

00:40:30: Hate when it happens?

00:40:31: Yeah let's proceed to a topic which hopefully will spark a lot of controversy amongst each other and among our listeners.

00:40:41: Marco, take us away.

00:40:43: Wonderful!

00:40:44: I think this very nicely also resonates with what we just discussed.

00:40:49: so in academia usually we kind of skip the rather shallow topics and i feel today's podcast is a really nice testament to

00:40:56: that.

00:41:00: This something very nice which basically brought me into the field.

00:41:08: However, you probably noticed that at conferences or in the breaks of this students and so on and so forth.

00:41:15: You need to do some small talk.

00:41:17: I don't know whether it was to practice Dutch because my small-talk skills are very weak but my co-worker work unsolicitedly sent me a podcast about how That's

00:41:34: amazing How

00:41:38: to be a more interesting person.

00:41:43: It was very interesting because the different cultures have different starting questions.

00:41:47: So apparently in China it is Have you eaten?

00:41:51: Is kind of nice starter for small talk conversation.

00:41:55: However, I wanted to hear what you say or would tell people if your have this kind of awkward situation.

00:42:04: so students are in the classroom already and you stand there, your slides are prepared.

00:42:10: And I feel like just standing there and embracing that void is not at least doesn't be to my natural.

00:42:21: So i try to engage on a conversation also.

00:42:23: or if you don't know Start have this awkward zoo calls and you are in a meeting of some we don't know but it's only the two or three of your or bump into someone at the conference coffee table.

00:42:38: And yeah, you're having this massive Stanley cup where you fill one and half ounces or twenty ounces of coffee and I want to make some light hearted conversation to ease their tension that he is also waiting for coffee also or she am fearing that They might not get any because you.

00:43:02: What's the question?

00:43:03: At a conference, what is your

00:43:05: small talk to go into talking?

00:43:08: at a conference?

00:43:09: I invest the first thirty seconds aggressively staring at the batch to see where what's school a person is from.

00:43:20: You are one free drink at the reception?

00:43:27: Yeah, I think that conferences it is somewhat easy because everyone has this experience of off-the-conference.

00:43:34: so you can either complain about something like coffee is too far away or too light whatever.

00:43:40: i think that helps alot.

00:43:42: With students I struggle a bit more to be honest, because they are again.

00:43:46: the question of optimal distance.

00:43:49: To the students is quite challenging too do.

00:43:52: and yeah...to be honest with students i somewhat avoid small talk.

00:43:59: so either we talked about Just stand there, just look at

00:44:02: them.

00:44:05: I have one of these paddles with a ball and string attached to it?

00:44:10: I thought for second you were going to speak about very different paddle!

00:44:13: And i'm glad that you

00:44:14: joined us this week.

00:44:18: Unfortunately no idea what are talking about... So yeah so..I think with colleagues or other academics is quite easy.

00:44:27: also enjoy these very slightly awkward conversations at conferences with students.

00:44:32: I struggle a bit more, so i'm happy to hear what are your favorite small talk topics Alex with students?

00:44:39: Oh wow!

00:44:40: With students... Well..I haven't interacted with students in awhile.

00:44:47: What?!

00:44:48: I am not allowed anymore.

00:44:50: It

00:44:51: involves a court order.

00:44:56: With support of the topic.... Um, I think i just point out usually something stupid.

00:45:04: that happened to me because.

00:45:07: I like to complain a lot surprise and probably that's something like uh i complain about something and see if that resonates.

00:45:17: um but as go-to small talk topic Maybe you just don't care, really.

00:45:25: You know?

00:45:26: I just don' t care enough anymore!

00:45:30: Um... I remember the question that i asked to students like a busy semester.

00:45:37: That's a gold one.

00:45:40: What did u do last weekend?

00:45:42: No,

00:45:42: no, not

00:45:43: at all.

00:45:44: That you didn´t do it.

00:45:45: You ask your student what did you do this weekend?

00:45:48: I don´t know.

00:45:49: why not Do have

00:45:50: boyfriend?

00:45:56: What parties

00:45:57: did you go to?

00:46:02: Okay, so far we have a lot of complaining about coffee and

00:46:07: conferences.

00:46:11: Yeah,

00:46:11: and I think it's also an invitation for them to start to complain.

00:46:17: Oh yeah definitely that stuff.

00:46:20: That's fine.

00:46:23: maybe you just always show up late?

00:46:25: To my glasses.

00:46:32: Yeah, just be late and avoid small talk that way.

00:46:38: No I honestly think...I might not be quite comfortable with awkward silence in that prompt others to instigate a conversation.

00:46:46: That's it!

00:46:48: Like i wait for the question of nice weather or where are you from?

00:46:56: and then I go from there.

00:46:58: And yeah, i don't know...I think..i really don't mind awkward silence.

00:47:05: it's kind of funny-

00:47:06: I also dont' mind small talk.

00:47:08: to be honest and that would say im not too bad at it.

00:47:12: Do you have a particularly bad smalltalk experience?

00:47:16: What was the most?

00:47:19: uh where did feel like your shit?

00:47:21: the bed?

00:47:23: Yeah!

00:47:23: I love when u ask a question And then you get a one-word answer and then you stand there.

00:47:30: Then the problem is, what do you do?

00:47:32: Do you ask for second question awaiting another one word answer or wait until other person now says something?

00:47:42: so accepting that silence was one thing.

00:47:44: but this is accepting after clear defeat That I don't like

00:47:53: My worst ones are, like when I'm... When the person has been introduced to me or when i've known that person before and just ask something.

00:48:04: The response is then yeah..I mean told you that?

00:48:08: Or we already met!

00:48:10: And it's that ah that hits in a way where

00:48:14: oh shit.

00:48:15: Yeah but there.

00:48:16: so I usually know for at least one behavior of the other person who can kind as make an assessment whether they know you right and then ask.

00:48:26: The question remind me again where was it last time that we saw each other?

00:48:31: Yeah, this is awkward.

00:48:32: if there like no

00:48:34: to our age in our age i think we are too young to ask these.

00:48:38: yeah exactly how did go up to?

00:48:40: uh come to a full point.

00:48:41: remind me Where do you know from?

00:48:48: Or just know me from the internet.

00:48:51: But you can do it in a way that is friendly, when was last time we saw each other again?

00:48:56: Was it Toronto or something like that right... You kind of know what kind of more collegial it's not.

00:49:04: Do I

00:49:04: need this person?

00:49:05: or are you one my Internet fans?

00:49:08: What if you do that twice to the same person?

00:49:10: Like, The first time is like how did we meet.

00:49:12: Can I remind me was at Toronto where we met and then you meet half a year later And it's like

00:49:20: what does yeah?

00:49:26: What is the alternative?

00:49:28: I don't

00:49:29: have one, i just run head on into these situations.

00:49:36: Where are you from?

00:49:41: We spent multiple days together and became close friends!

00:49:44: No,

00:49:49: those are the ones that really get me.

00:49:51: It's where I'm like.

00:49:51: yeah we've seen each other twice and then oh yeah wait!

00:49:57: Oh yeah...I remember but still don't because i am also stuck and frozen.

00:50:05: The next question better not be worse than first one.

00:50:08: What can I ask now without remembering this person?

00:50:12: Do you like

00:50:14: soup?!

00:50:21: I know you're a good small talker.

00:50:23: Can he will give us if your good points?

00:50:25: Yeah,

00:50:26: help is

00:50:28: like.

00:50:28: actually i thought i could learn from u guys but i was terribly disappointed.

00:50:36: But yeah um

00:50:37: You listen to the podcast.

00:50:38: what's the name of what's it take away?

00:50:41: Listen to.

00:50:42: oh yeah they Say that it is a personality thing.

00:50:46: I have

00:50:46: to admit, its not scientific podcast.

00:50:48: It's basically a radio show.

00:50:49: moderators talking about...

00:50:51: So another scientific podcast?

00:50:52: Not like ours?

00:50:53: I don't

00:50:53: know but i'm not like our thought evidence base But more rather like their gut feeling in the sense They

00:51:01: all

00:51:02: think there are differences right?

00:51:03: so people who are very open To new experiences and agreeable And they're very extrovert Might be better as small talkers.

00:51:12: Having said that, yeah.

00:51:16: I don't know.

00:51:17: so... That's why i asked!

00:51:21: Complaining or talking about the conference strategy.

00:51:23: I would rather focus on a positive elements like oh wow such beautiful city.

00:51:29: Or isn't it nice that everyone, all of your divisions are here together?

00:51:34: If

00:51:34: you said that to me at a conference i'd move slowly backwards and think You're an absolute psychopath.

00:51:40: if someone comes To be in there they go.

00:51:41: isnt this all amazing?

00:51:42: i feel okay.

00:51:44: Time to call

00:51:46: the police

00:51:50: And this is the end of our nice little project.

00:51:58: But to be fair, with students I always start in the same way as Philip outlined before.

00:52:05: and how's the semester going?

00:52:09: When are the exams again...

00:52:11: How was the exam period?

00:52:13: yeah

00:52:14: that's a good one!

00:52:17: Have you made

00:52:17: your choices concerning the electives already?

00:52:20: Yeah,

00:52:22: I think they are fairly easy to go towards.

00:52:26: Or do we have any follow-up questions concerning last week... But yeah with conferences i still struggle and i noticed that as recently had a guest here And i think it was reason why my colleague sent me this podcast because I had no idea what to ask this fellow because he never heard his name, read his research and so on.

00:53:01: Nick Perente had like... And i'm not sure if that's just an American thing but remember listening one of the.

00:53:08: This Is Research Podcasts?

00:53:10: He said his go-to is talking about sports.

00:53:14: Okay,

00:53:14: but this drops into a void with me as well and then I have to explain them or i don't follow sports.

00:53:22: Yeah so that's also good because when you know like okay this person isn't worth talking too?

00:53:28: Ok wow!

00:53:31: I feel very good

00:53:32: at selecting.

00:53:36: I'm not surprised anymore...you haven't talked to anyone.

00:53:40: I've been in a home office for long time.

00:53:41: You have to admit that.

00:53:42: Yeah, it shows!

00:53:47: But we're quickly approaching the one hour mark unless you have any more small talk.

00:53:55: hot takes from me.

00:53:56: how do improve my strategies?

00:54:00: I just stay inside.

00:54:02: Just to avoid all social contact.

00:54:05: Practice

00:54:06: with JetGPT?

00:54:07: Yeah,

00:54:08: it's not good!

00:54:09: I feel like that would make it worse but...

00:54:14: I don't consult these webpages because i did some Google search before and there were questions about who you travel the world

00:54:20: with.

00:54:21: or if you

00:54:22: have a superpower what would be?

00:54:24: Does

00:54:24: he imagine cold weather?

00:54:25: Someone asked me at conference

00:54:31: Super powers disappear.

00:54:35: Fly away from this conversation as quickly as possible.

00:54:40: Yeah, that's just imagine cold opening.

00:54:43: what would your superpower be?

00:54:46: But yeah I should check these websites for next discussion topic.

00:54:50: But but of course in in Desk reject tradition.

00:54:55: we have our most important segment at the end that everybody waits for and Everybody unanimously loves, and that's the ad segment.

00:55:03: And today's episode is brought to you by a company.

00:55:08: That represents The inverse Of the favorite brand of Germans which was do we all remember?

00:55:16: What was it favorite?

00:55:17: No PayPal The brand that I would wager all my Apecoins might be the most despised company.

00:55:29: So, today's episode is brought to you by...I'd say maybe certainly among top three most despise brands.

00:55:39: and let us see it altogether at the count of three!

00:55:42: Three Two One Sanifier.

00:55:46: For those of you who have not traveled by car in Germany, In brief much like payday loan sharks, SaniFair built a business on praying humans when they are at their most vulnerable.

00:55:56: When they use the toilets after having driven for hours To add insult to injury They spit out a glossy voucher that everybody knows will just end up littering your car.

00:56:04: because Who wants be the asshole?

00:56:06: holding up the line At a kiosk while the cashier manually scans thirty five fifty cent Vouchers to pay for your beefy and monster energy.

00:56:13: And I speak in the name of all Germans and of the tens of German tourists when i say, I despise you.

00:56:22: To our listeners for everybody that mails fifty Sanifair vouchers to Utrecht University address to Philipp Becker we will give a shout out next episode.

00:56:33: That is our ad segment today!

00:56:36: That's top of the mind after having driven for nine hours through Germany and never fails to enrage me when I'm faced with this sunny fare thing.

00:56:47: And then it doesn't read my car, that I need run back in search for coins or...

00:56:54: If someone actually sends fifty of these vouchers i will take them go a gas station by one of those hot dogs that are dispensed in these glass boxes, simmering and sweat for forty eight hours.

00:57:14: And we'll have one of this

00:57:16: you heard it here first will be our first.

00:57:18: YouTube content is Philip eating on those hot dogs has been standing there far from probably two years.

00:57:26: with that being said thank you Dear listeners, very much for listening.

00:57:30: Currently you cannot follow us on much of the socials and unless we get a grant which I believe Philip will be getting soon this won't change anytime soon.

00:57:42: if you do like our podcast Go hit subscribe and remain subscribed on Spotify, overcast or pocket cast.

00:57:49: On any kind of app that ends in caste... ...and subscribe every device you have to tell your mom about it.

00:57:58: They love our light-hearted discussions with how we deal with loss.

00:58:03: Intro and outro.

00:58:04: ad music is maybe going to be by our own Philip Becker if not by Blue Dot Sessions And this episode was produced by me, Alexander.

00:58:17: Until next time bye-bye!

00:58:38: a completely new revolutionary format in which each week, we will be bringing one topic to discuss.

00:58:58: And then try and incorporate it into these topics... Fuck that up!

00:59:11: Cut

00:59:16: again.

00:59:18: by alphonic.com.