00:00:02: Hello and welcome dear listeners to the nth episode of reject and resubmit.

00:00:06: I'm not giving any Episode numbers anymore because The only reason you'd even care is if i got it wrong anyway, so as always joining You today are?

00:00:19: I knew this would happen.

00:00:20: amazing Alexander Marco and Philip from From all corners of Europe from Barcelona All the way to Amsterdam and Utrecht.

00:00:34: And yes, for our primary topic today I wanted to dive right in and ask you what is a hobby?

00:00:44: You wish... ...you had developed.

00:00:47: so something that sounds like it would have been amazing either enjoy or be highly invested in four years but at this point of life just feels as if we missed the boat.

00:00:59: Marco.

00:01:04: Yeah, it's so true.

00:01:06: Just like one of those nerdy hobbies that why when you're in school?

00:01:09: Like God?

00:01:09: no what a loser.

00:01:10: I'm going to go and play football but now It's like wow yeah That's a good pull.

00:01:16: Yeah i mean there is this book by Boso on Good Arguments And its something that really helped me in formulating good arguments later On and reading was quite enjoyable Yeah, and ever since then I felt like debating would have been something i could've gotten really into.

00:01:34: But A the school that I attended did not offer such a thing And B people will be in the shit out of me.

00:01:42: yeah

00:01:43: right but it wouldn't totally worth to just get your ass beat.

00:01:47: maybe just a combination of boxing and debating is actually the killer move too.

00:01:51: To do.

00:01:52: as kid That's

00:01:54: just a bar fight.

00:01:59: I would have prepared me for buffets though.

00:02:02: Now i'm

00:02:03: losing both.

00:02:07: What's stopping you from joining a debate club now?

00:02:10: The urge to beat up the other people?

00:02:14: No, it is something that we only recognize when starting to learn Dutch.

00:02:24: My ego would not allow me to be beaten up by an eighteen year old.

00:02:27: It's basically the case when doing a Dutch course and being assigned for second course because you're German native speaker.

00:02:33: so they thought I am, he will manage...

00:02:36: Yeah!

00:02:37: The worst speaking person in this very class.

00:02:40: it really sucked like all the eighteen-year olds were looking at me.

00:02:43: What?

00:02:44: This guy is an assistant professor here.

00:02:47: Amazing!

00:02:49: I'm Marco and work at the university.

00:02:53: Yeah, they

00:02:54: didn't get it... Where do you work?

00:02:57: At the University

00:03:03: of Amsterdam.

00:03:05: Oh man how humbling..

00:03:06: And the debating club in the university of Amsterdam is for students so i would now feel kind Odd joining.

00:03:14: However, if they ever asked me whether I want to join like as a tutor trainer or whatever... ...I think i would do that!

00:03:21: I've never done this before but...

00:03:25: I see my role more like a manager.

00:03:31: Yeah just one chat GPT prompt away from being in the debate.

00:03:34: champion

00:03:36: Doubt.

00:03:37: But yeah no that there will have been I guess my pick.

00:03:44: I do have quite a few hobbies that i started and then didn't continue building robots, painting warhammer minifigures.

00:03:52: But one thing is playing in the band.

00:03:56: it's hard to catch up from friends when being older than thirty starting one and then having very little experience.

00:04:09: I think that's something we're kind of missed about, but maybe in the future.

00:04:14: Alex you had a band right?

00:04:15: Yeah it was...I mean i didn't have a band.

00:04:17: It was part of a band You know as we all can universally agree playing the most essential instrument The bass.

00:04:28: Sure

00:04:29: So..i got over girls because

00:04:34: they asked you what the guitar player number.

00:04:41: Yeah, but yeah it was actually cool.

00:04:43: that's something I'm really happy had that experience and got out of my system.

00:04:47: great

00:04:48: It was fun!

00:04:49: But also sucked a lot to be amazing Because i hated my band members so... That was maybe not their best conservation.

00:05:01: For me, it's very similar.

00:05:02: I was even thinking of like saying pursuing the band route but being a DJ just having all the equipment and knowing how to do it and just being able to rock up somewhere.

00:05:17: because briefly during COVID... ...I already had that thing in my my Amazon.

00:05:26: Oh, I already ordered it!

00:05:28: Like i had...I did all the research..i got like the deck and everything ..and this is going to be my COVID project.... I'm gonna learn how to DJ because I really love mixing music ...and stuff.

00:05:36: when I was collecting on music .

00:05:38: And at that moment , I pressed Purchase..... I just realized I f***ing hate clubs.

00:05:43: When I am not ever Going to go like a club and be the practice DJ from four until six in the morning that sounds like absolute hell.

00:05:54: And so, I press by immediately wrote customer service that i mistakenly ordered You know, she put in fifteen into her basket and then managed to delete fourteen.

00:06:11: In order one.

00:06:11: I don't know how she did it but decided to buy a gaming laptop instead because that felt more

00:06:17: smart.

00:06:17: choice

00:06:18: my lane.

00:06:19: But yeah like thinking man if i-if I did that already in school or during studies uh...but you didn't have the money.

00:06:26: just having equipment knowing how to mix songs And having your collection sounds pretty dope even though The idea of having to be out until like five o'clock in the morning sounds like absolute hell to me now.

00:06:41: But yeah, and another life

00:06:43: you can do it at smaller parties with friends as well right?

00:06:48: People are usually great for someone

00:06:49: but then again is there goes a when.

00:06:51: how many I couldn't...I could count on one hand The amount of times i was at party that age where people wanted a DJ Like.

00:07:02: how many parties have you been at lately with friends?

00:07:05: whereas like the one ingredient that's missing right now is a DJ.

00:07:09: That it's just playing his music?

00:07:14: Yeah, Lately this good question but in the past that happened quite often.

00:07:20: people did have said and people started to make music there.

00:07:24: yeah maybe they were so well

00:07:25: you're cooler than me then.

00:07:27: I guess

00:07:28: That is true, but I don't know if one's the function of the other.

00:07:34: Okay now we got... ...the core topic out-of-the way We can quickly deal with the rest of the episode And....I'm not gonna start this time because i have a feeling like.. ..i always start with my Topic!

00:07:49: Im going to let someone else Start!

00:07:51: I am going to Let Marco Start.

00:07:53: What are you talking about today?

00:07:55: Yeah, no.

00:07:56: It's a topic that... So my topic today is theory and theory building And I think against the spectrum i thought it would be interesting to briefly discuss The different roles different methods of inquiry have in your theory-building process.

00:08:13: Or two make it more tangible?

00:08:18: I mean previously sketch or when I was at I don't know in my undergrad basic procedure outlined in introduction to scientific methods.

00:08:27: and one or two, whatever was qualitative data is there.

00:08:31: To build theory quantitative datas.

00:08:33: they have to test

00:08:34: me right?

00:08:36: However I feel like with the advent of more advanced technologies this got sort of mixed up In a sense.

00:08:42: And also when i look into that literature ,I Feel Like It's Sort Of Is Not As Copy Catacly as it used to be.

00:08:49: And I had a run lately conversation with my colleague about it, and who's currently writing the paper on this very topic.

00:08:55: On how to use large amounts of data also to build theory?

00:08:58: Okay now i was wondering About your sentiment because i know philippe for instance is working A lot With large amounts Of data whether you could Also see an angle For building theory based on i don't Know conference calls or whatever.

00:09:13: Or you are like Building Theory out of fun, cool data sets.

00:09:21: I think with the old subject at hand might be more interesting.

00:09:24: with crowds for instance you could interview people and analyze replies comments but who does that really?

00:09:36: So i was just wondering whether you see a potential or what i learned in my undergrad is completely obsolete by now.

00:09:47: Yeah, I'm just becoming crazy.

00:09:52: Go ahead, Philippe.

00:09:52: Are you?

00:09:53: Okay then i start So...I am not so sure whether I fully agree with the premise that qualitative research ...I think there is a leaning but I wouldn't even make that distinction so drastically and.. ..I think the key limitation that you have with quantitative data Is only a subset of questions can be answered and this then guides theory development also in a very specific direction.

00:10:21: I'll make a concrete example, Aparachlon's Theory by Hembrick got through the roof because he made his suggestion of considering the characteristics... ...of the leaders at The Firm by looking at observables.

00:10:39: so namely how old are they?

00:10:41: How long do their work at The

00:10:42: firm?".

00:10:43: And by suggesting These proxies he opened the door of looking and theorizing also based on these characteristics, how that would affect decision making.

00:10:54: So here we have a very clear example where the methodological suggestion of looking at proxys open to theoretical discussion.

00:11:05: So I would say that generally theorizing, or the problem they're quant... Theorising based on quantitative data is that it feels sometimes more limited.

00:11:17: You have to make theoretical arguments of why looking at this data actually captures a notion you are interested in?

00:11:26: But can you...?

00:11:35: give my opinion.

00:11:38: Can you unpack that a little bit more?

00:11:41: Like, I feel like we say these things or people say this thing's like qualitative data is here for theory building but quantitative data is hear for theory testing.

00:11:51: what does that even mean?

00:11:53: why Is That the case?

00:11:54: What's an example where You know...what theory are we concretely?

00:12:00: What theory has been built, which only could be built with qualitative data?

00:12:06: And why can we not build theories of quantitative data.

00:12:12: Like I understand the reverse for example like it's very... For me personally just from where i come form my epistemological position..I do not believe that classical interpretivist qualitative methods are sufficiently able to test theory.

00:12:33: That's one thing that I would sign, but the rest am a bit unclear about?

00:12:41: Maybe... One quick thought and then give it back to Marco because he thinks this is the most.

00:12:47: The difference which leads into this feeling of qualitative research usually for theory development tends be more inductive.

00:12:55: so you make collect the qualitative data, engage with it and try to inductively develop something new out of it.

00:13:03: So this naturally leads more or two theory development rather than empirical work with quantitative data that has to a priori define hypothesis right?

00:13:16: It just leans towards testing so less toward hypothesis development do you think is where this distinction tends come from Marco?

00:13:24: I asked for the, why?

00:13:29: Like sorry.

00:13:32: But like Why can you basically...why Can You go out and get quantitative data And then build theory on that?

00:13:39: Why can't you Go Out and Get Quantitative Data?

00:13:41: Let's Make it Concrete right?

00:13:42: Yeah Because Why Can You Go out and Talk to Managers and Then Build Theory?

00:13:48: Why Can't You go Out and Just you know Collect i don't Know some Some financial data and then build theory on that.

00:13:55: What's why do you say I'm not saying UU but because i'm making in the spot, like yeah what u said is kind of generally assumed?

00:14:05: I think this is where people try to push for it so they can develop theory based on quantitative data... cannot formulate hypothesis after you know the results, harking.

00:14:19: And what you somewhat suggest is exactly that right?

00:14:23: You take a huge data set and try to find relationship significant.

00:14:29: then you tried to find story which makes this relationships interesting.

00:14:34: This isn't research.

00:14:40: Does it partially give an answer of what I mean

00:14:44: by?

00:14:44: I think probably what you kind of classified as this is not how we do research, right?

00:14:48: Or why was basically the question.

00:14:52: You could find patterns and other sub-domains do it like violence for instance accounting but in our subject its still very much frowned upon And i feel that also hard to position such a paper because it would be an entirely exploratory analysis.

00:15:11: Yeah, because I mean what you're saying like it.

00:15:13: What's your saying?

00:15:14: But when I'm understanding and playing devil's advocate is that It's okay to just exploratively interpret subjectively qualitative interview data.

00:15:29: then You can build through Just Because Your Not Showing Any Significance or not testing for significance.

00:15:35: but as soon As You Explore Quantitative Data Let'S Say Earnings or stock prices, you're immediately looking for significant relationships and that is then harking.

00:15:48: But what's looking for a significant relationship?

00:15:53: Looking for patterns... You can say this is definitely pattern but in qualitative research I'm not an expert there aren't you also looking for patterns?

00:16:05: but hiding behind the fact This is significant, like you're just using different language or I might be getting something mixed up.

00:16:16: No no i think what we stumble upon that this format.

00:16:21: it's not very well established right?

00:16:23: so we have a quantitative data set and don't formulate hypothesis do test based on p-values to define significance but will merely describe how the dataset develops in order testable congestions for the future, right?

00:16:41: This is what could be possible but rarely happens.

00:16:46: Because you cannot develop... You can not look at data and then formulate a test to see if it's actually in there.

00:16:55: The issue that we most often have all available data.

00:16:59: so let us assume I formulate or I look at S&P-F-Hundered Data find relevant significant relationship in there, formulate a hypothesis.

00:17:10: I would need to go into different contexts now and test this.

00:17:14: that is not the S&P-Five hundred but they are the largest firms in US right?

00:17:20: So we cannot go back!

00:17:23: You can only jump in the river once, right?

00:17:25: And that's a bit of an issue if you have almost access to entire universe of quantitative data.

00:17:32: So we would then need go into different contexts for example Chinese firms but they also assume differences and institutional context change things up.

00:17:42: Yeah so I think there are reasons why it occurs more rarely.

00:17:47: Okay, then just to push you further or you Marco any of you so.

00:17:52: You gave the case for quantitative data because like your goal get the S&P data and formulating hypothesis basically would have do it again with a counterfactual or second S&p but there's only one S& P right?

00:18:07: So let us take qualitative.

00:18:12: why is okay?

00:18:14: go go do interviews, then basically formulate quote unquote hypothesis and use that data to kind of say this is what I think.

00:18:26: Why?

00:18:26: I've never done qualitative work before.

00:18:28: Yeah

00:18:28: so Marko maybe jump in here.

00:18:30: um yeah i guess it very much resonates with what Philip just said That you'd Never have This aspiration Of creating something that's generalizable right And people don't assume.

00:18:45: Well, with quantitative data you already push people towards a certain way of interpreting the entire paper.

00:18:51: So as Philip said I think we lack the templates for such papers and B yeah... People would just not assume such thing.

00:19:00: however but at least to me This leads to this like a problematic that we already discussed last time, or not last but one of the few times beforehand.

00:19:12: That now we have a proliferation of theory and nice kind of tweaks towards the theory But you can never test them eventually because I mean what do come up with qualitative data?

00:19:24: Sometimes if i look over the models... ...I feel like it would really struggle testing these sorts of mechanisms Because they are circular mediated, moderated mediation whatever and that's why I was just wondering whether this detachment also between the two areas at times is problematic but on a slightly different angle now processing large amounts of qualitative data to come up with pseudo-quantitative

00:19:57: analysis.

00:19:59: It feels like it's, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

00:20:03: In a way right?

00:20:03: If this if you lay out the benefits of qualitative research and that is doesn't, its not hampered

00:20:12: by

00:20:16: you can't really explore it.

00:20:18: quantitative research.

00:20:19: You need to go in with already like some idea of what your analysis will be, and then show some relationship?

00:20:25: And by definition, you're kind of p-hacking or harking.

00:20:30: if you do theory building that I mean applying.

00:20:35: just going into the diagnosis is a problem for qualitative researchers.

00:20:41: there's not enough data.

00:20:45: How about we use these new technologies to make, you know more measures.

00:20:51: And and use this technology to quantify qualitative data?

00:20:55: You're kind of destroying the value of quantitative data or not?

00:20:59: I mean that's.

00:21:00: That's kind of the problem.

00:21:01: i'm.

00:21:01: i'm kinda seeing your just... ...you are maneuvering into a situation where qualitative data if you start harking as well then right no I don't know all the interview data.

00:21:16: You do seven hundred interviews and then you start analyzing that quantitatively?

00:21:24: Uh, i often think this comes from a wish for innovation but different perspective in how people are trained.

00:21:33: so people train qualitative work And want to develop more towards um Quantitative approaches But do not have training there.

00:21:44: So they developed their own things Right.

00:21:46: So I sometimes feel that this is the case, i will not name a method and but uh... This Is Sometimes The Case.

00:21:55: um so i would agree That People Kind Of Limit The Yeah Or

00:22:01: Yeah

00:22:02: Constrain Their The Qualities That The Key Method They Use Has.

00:22:07: Well

00:22:08: It's Also Kind of Interesting Because Once Again This Aspect Even Just Going Back To The Opening Statement Of Productive Data is for theorizing quantitative data.

00:22:17: as for testing.

00:22:18: I mean, in other fields... I mean natural sciences anyway but even economics largely they'd say something like structural models are for theorising quantitative data.

00:22:32: it's for testing theory and qualitative data is for campside storytelling.

00:22:42: I mean, in those honest like talk to someone and natural like an engineering or a natural science are more traditional economists they will.

00:22:50: They were sitting.

00:22:50: well theory is based off of models and then you test those like there's separate your modeler your theoretical economist your theoretical physicist your theoretical chemist whatever You build your models, you make simulations whatever with these models and then give it to the empiricists who take data and apply that.

00:23:10: That's how they're tested.

00:23:12: Qualitative information is a side aspect of... Oh yeah by the way in economics for example might actually be not bad to talk people out if what you are modeling or testing is real but more like you know.

00:23:29: hey that would be nice rather than having its own kind of feel.

00:23:36: I want to give an example over work, what we described relies a lot on quantitative data but tries to describe it more.

00:23:47: and A dissertation actually by Lee Drutman, the business of America's lobbying how corporations became politicized and politics become more corporate.

00:23:59: And he describes our lobbying works in

00:24:02: U.S.,

00:24:03: relies on a lot different data.

00:24:05: that doesn't test or write hypothesis.

00:24:08: but he described all this work developed over time so it is quite quantitative What highly descriptive.

00:24:15: and I think that there's a lot of value in their especially if you want to understand the phenomenon Rather than testing one specific element to it.

00:24:24: now would say that he develops.

00:24:26: A lot of theory in there.

00:24:29: Yeah, no i think that might be.

00:24:31: I don't know If its template because It's a book

00:24:33: yeah was just gonna Say is very telling.

00:24:35: it's not a public.

00:24:36: yes basically toilet paper

00:24:40: Okay.

00:24:44: I really enjoyed it and this is quite helpful, but for academic journals at least in our field or my field i don't have a good example.

00:24:55: Keeping an eye on the time?

00:24:58: Good that we solved another puzzle solved!

00:25:02: Not really... But by one editor.

00:25:07: where for me, the hypothesis and testies.

00:25:12: And so on forth.

00:25:13: The editor suggested he can't take it like this but if we would completely rework in a more descriptive approach not claim causality or anything then there might be way forward.

00:25:26: There could have been template But I haven't created it

00:25:32: with something I'll be submitting actually at Descriptive rather than a testing theory approach and I'll let you know at how many journals are get rejected once it's one set.

00:25:46: I look forward to this two-digit number.

00:25:50: Thank You shots of being fired To who wants to go next Philip?

00:25:59: Let's hear your.

00:26:00: Yeah, i think my topic is today life and work in academia.

00:26:08: So we are doing something that I want to talk about namely, We Are Friends and we work on a project together even though it's only podcast.

00:26:16: And how do you think about working on academic projects or paper projects with friends?

00:26:22: Do You do That first?

00:26:25: Do you do that Alex?

00:26:26: have you started Projects With Friend with the Rare Friends The rare few you Have?

00:26:34: My Approach really has always been to only work with friends, actually.

00:26:38: That was the whole draw to this because I had a really nice experience in industry working with someone that developed into a great friend and i noticed how much fun it was And I notice so much... ...I hated having to work with people like colleagues or don't really like.

00:27:00: So I kind of carried forward research, try to always make sure that there's a relationship.

00:27:07: There when I work with people it's more on friendly basis.

00:27:11: but um i wouldn't say honestly That is the way you go because The downside of kind of working like deciding to work With someone You Like and this Is A Nice Friend It Makes Situations Quite Tough.

00:27:28: If One Of Them or one Of You It makes some costs even more difficult to get over.

00:27:37: Because it's not just about a project, or professional relationship... This is also friendship plus.

00:27:49: I feel like it makes tough discussions harder.

00:27:56: and third for people.

00:27:59: It was my feeling, they kind of use that as a way to deep prioritize their work with friends.

00:28:10: Yeah

00:28:11: so it's busy people I've worked with... ...people who are considered by me and I noticed somehow The intensity or the urgency they worked on projects with like superiors, people that were colleagues seemed more than a project.

00:28:27: A Project With Me which was more like hey this is fun!

00:28:29: This is you know oh cool but if I had time i'll work on it.

00:28:33: and then push came to shove... ...the project with me would kind of fall by their wayside.

00:28:39: so those are three downsides.. ..I've gathered from really Over the time working, but

00:28:48: is it actually fun to work with friends?

00:28:51: I mean that's so.

00:28:52: those are the answers and the upsides Are really worth The cost in my opinion like i'm not gonna.

00:28:56: I don't think I want to change this anytime soon because It's it's wonderful Like think of all the rejections we get its sucks if you got a rejection And then you have to deal With someone You don't even Really Want To Deal With.

00:29:10: But it's great to kind of be able do this with someone you really enjoy spending time with, who would consider a friend.

00:29:19: You can pick each other up and share the... The loss or the hard feelings.

00:29:29: And when things are going well, it's also great like if you're at a conference together and... It's a lot of fun to then spend time together in work on something If it works?

00:29:40: Well!

00:29:41: I don't think my three downsides that identified.

00:29:47: by no means is this me saying okay i've learned my lesson Don't work with friends Comes also with a bit of downside when things turn south.

00:30:03: Marco, I know that you do both so... ...you work with friends and non-friends?

00:30:08: At least a Zoom!

00:30:11: Let's see how this develops over time.

00:30:14: They all start as friends.

00:30:18: No but what are your thoughts on them?

00:30:21: Yeah, I can only piggyback on what Alex was saying.

00:30:24: Although i interpret these three limitations more on a guy differently to put it nicely because i think you cannot really harm the friendship and make its most of all the prioritization element right?

00:30:38: Because people have different priorities.

00:30:39: I don't know if this, that a person who is supposed to write on the paper sends me Instagram reels.

00:30:54: This really kind of creates some tensions and I feel like it's unnecessary.

00:30:58: then again as Alex pointed out in this we know from group research um uh...like this mid-level cohesion within your group was perfect to have kinda conflict going because If the equation is too high, you also start to have things like group thing and so on as well.

00:31:13: So we feel all

00:31:14: these papers great!

00:31:16: We are so good And people stop doubting each other.

00:31:20: I think especially with friends this can be very much a case.

00:31:25: To add one thing... ...I really liked my friends for different qualities than i liked my co-authors.

00:31:33: This was important because If my friends are messy, I like to go out with friends for drinks.

00:31:40: They're like too have fun and such but with my co-authors would prefer them staying at home thinking about how to kind of further develop the paper being super fresh on a Monday morning not hungover.

00:31:54: so i think in this regard it can be problematic too And make even more sustainable.

00:32:02: When doing My Master I had just one friend that was writing me a paper At one party, we were both tipsy to work nicely and initially it was like preventing the other from getting even more drunk.

00:32:17: But at one point It was just making sure that the other person is even more wasted than you are so you can blame him or her instead of yourself.

00:32:26: And this kind of rather dysfunctional tendencies I think i wouldn't see in a regular co-authorship

00:32:33: to put it nicely.

00:32:34: I don't, I can follow.

00:32:36: all my friends are great at framing introductions so... That's how I choose.

00:32:46: We have a different selection

00:32:49: mechanism.

00:32:50: They need to be able to write a coherent discussion before we go out on beer with them.

00:32:56: Theory first right?

00:32:57: Exactly!

00:33:01: I also feel personally attacked by you saying that you wrote papers during your master, but Philip.

00:33:06: No

00:33:06: no like these seminar papers nothing got published or even

00:33:12: something nice yeah to be.

00:33:15: I'm wondering why we are very good friends Marco?

00:33:18: But not even once the idea occurred and we should write a paper together.

00:33:26: because

00:33:29: what do they say?

00:33:31: Yeah,

00:33:32: I think basically it felt like the argument that put forward was yours instead of mine.

00:33:38: Saying you know this wouldn't be good for our friendship and we have very different layers... ...and various ways to thinking about things.

00:33:45: but...

00:33:46: Yeah, Philippe!

00:33:47: You're careful not working with friends.

00:33:50: Yes, yes i'm very careful because there are reasons why you mentioned them And also i don´t want an easy person to work with What?

00:34:03: So

00:34:04: if this is the last time you listen to his podcast, now you know why.

00:34:11: No, I mean that do.

00:34:12: i do have very clear and strong opinions And also very emotional attached to my work.

00:34:17: It's not.

00:34:17: it sounds like a fucking psychopath right?

00:34:19: That's not the case but I Know know.

00:34:23: then its easier To just focus on project in and focus on what I think is best for the project independent of friends.

00:34:31: um and Then I can say I don't see this method.

00:34:35: I can Say even did.

00:34:37: I don' t think the paper was going anywhere.

00:34:38: let maybe Put it on the side for a second, everything that's very hard to do in project with friends.

00:34:46: And its not like.

00:34:46: I don't like work with friends right?

00:34:48: Organizing PWS is fun with friends and doing podcast together as fun with friend.

00:34:54: being in daily life of university has lot of fun with Friends!

00:34:59: And i also tend become close co-authors over time And I would call them now friends, but it's a little bit like moving in with friends when you have a shared apartment.

00:35:10: While your still student that awful to do.

00:35:12: it was friends because the relationship just shifts and they are different things that become important than you love their craziness of your friend When you see him like two three times a week But you hate when?

00:35:23: The person never cleans their dishes.

00:35:26: This is something That's the same for paper develop.

00:35:31: i think You're pointing out Something Important.

00:35:32: It's I also realized like, i don't necessarily seek out friends to co-author with.

00:35:41: It's more like... ...I seek out people that might eventually be someone I'd like to hangout with.

00:35:48: Like.

00:35:48: I was thinking back now like.. I know some People That were very much this.

00:35:52: hey we're Friends right?

00:35:53: Why Don't We?

00:35:54: You Know We Should Write A Paper and it is actually I have to revise my statement.

00:35:59: Actually, i'm a little bit careful about that as well like...I would also be careful if there's been very long relationship with someone as friend.

00:36:08: um..i am a bit careful too.

00:36:14: consider authoring of person.

00:36:16: but it is more in the sense of If get along somebody then im more likely want write paper on them.

00:36:28: If someone that's in my field and is amazing, what's it called?

00:36:42: Palmaris.

00:36:43: What's

00:36:43: palmaris?

00:36:47: Track record.

00:36:48: Oh no yes but also like complementary skills.

00:36:51: That's why I wanted to say great complementary skills Great track record Amazing In the Field Um, but if I don't feel like a vibe with them.

00:37:00: Don't want to work with him um that's kind of.

00:37:02: they have to pass the vibe check.

00:37:03: in a sense for me To be allowed.

00:37:06: Also as A phd i dont see That much value.

00:37:14: and writing a paper With another phd If there is not just The great opportunity right?

00:37:18: If you Have something so two phds meeting together from from different angles, on different fields trying to come up with a research idea.

00:37:26: It's almost doomed to be not good paper.

00:37:29: so I mean outliers excluded.

00:37:32: form this line of argument and especially as a PhDer well i think it makes most sense to work with people who are more senior can help you framing the paper or give very valuable advice in teaching something.

00:37:46: But now, I mean it's also nice to work with people who are also assistants or associates and then you're two people driving the project maybe get a more senior person later on.

00:37:56: And that may be open to start projects with people actually my friends!

00:38:02: I will use this as perfect transition for my topic if i may.

00:38:10: My question is similar what we talked about last time in that I'm interested to know what are challenges, but nobody has told you about that arise only once you're an assistant professor position.

00:38:28: So kind of related to what we talked on unexpected skills and also touching upon what Philip just said when it's a good idea how to shift your focus around research projects because um, kind of now is that it's.

00:38:50: I've started to really have to think strategically about which projects i work on and where i put my time in.

00:38:59: Like from a negative perspective maybe like...i'm less curious in a way if i think of research question or stumble upon something interesting in the news You know, get very excited and think like oh my I need this data.

00:39:17: And then i do.

00:39:18: This is a great person to work with into contact.

00:39:22: Now immediately My mind goes to yeah but you Know i've got this many years.

00:39:26: i need these Many publications.

00:39:30: Is really worth me apportioning even an hour A week?

00:39:35: um taking that Hour away from more important projects or things i have To Do.

00:39:43: That's an unexpected challenge for me.

00:39:45: Honestly, I mean maybe it's more Expected for you guys but i was a bit surprised at how often now When i stumble across something that i would originally think as You know oh interesting Now im immediately thinking yeah But How does this slot into my very limited time and My obligations?

00:40:07: Yeah, I mean they can very much just echo that.I think i was way more strategic about this during my PhD where it's like hyperselective on only the three projects and then one thing which is a great opportunity or saw lot of potential.

00:40:23: And now this shifted alot in people.. The biggest issue I'm in a PhD very focused on my own three projects, but now people reach out with ideas and want to work with me or have.

00:40:36: A data set would know that they had the data sets.

00:40:38: so i feel like it can contribute value quickly an can help people and that's feels very nice.

00:40:44: So why start another project and try to give feedback?

00:40:48: And at the moment due to that I feel little bit overwhelmed.

00:40:52: um...so uh yeah..I can just echo that that I have the exact same perspective.

00:40:59: That, i think... If thats necessarily wrong right?

00:41:05: Im in first year of tenure track so.. I should broaden my pipeline a little bit and start new projects but it can get too much quite quickly.

00:41:18: at least its what im feeling.

00:41:20: Yeah,

00:41:22: next to the crowding out.

00:41:23: I feel like also just this feeling of being there now been the adult in their room with something right at times.

00:41:29: so You know back in the days nobody would kind of wonder if you then go back to your supervisor.

00:41:34: hey Professor What do you think what can i do?

00:41:39: What should i do?

00:41:39: and so on so forth.

00:41:40: So yeah Now being this person To a judge by yourself without consulting others or only consulting peers And being asked to make such calls and not having someone to consult on a rather institutionalized basis.

00:42:03: Yeah,

00:42:04: challenging at times

00:42:07: absolutely I can.

00:42:08: that's interesting as well because i've also that kind of shift is happens real cut off.

00:42:16: But it's such, so jarring like in my communications now with senior authors.

00:42:21: Like I'm also realizing that its...I need to make executive decisions now It is no longer.

00:42:29: hey how do you like this?

00:42:31: Should i reframe something?

00:42:32: Does This Make Sense?

00:42:34: Can I move on Now?

00:42:35: Its You're Expected To Point Out where we're going even sometimes kind of if a senior co-author that is the phd would have never dare to do so.

00:42:47: but you say like i know.

00:42:49: actually I don't think thats, i dont' think it makes sense.

00:42:55: Maybe not a challenge maybe some will see this as benefit?

00:42:59: But yeah definitely unexpected.

00:43:02: Yeah may be next time also having this clear learning trajectory in your courses.

00:43:08: You have papers ideally different, you have constant feedback.

00:43:11: And now I feel like yeah...like an aggressive autodidact!

00:43:17: So

00:43:18: to teach myself these things and that kind of thing at times i would be like oh..I should do a PhD workshop on using machine learning algorithms to analyze qualitative data.

00:43:30: for instance.

00:43:32: if Love you probably also have the same Sensational experience as I would have in a debate club.

00:43:45: Yeah,

00:43:46: yeah.

00:43:46: I Would love to quickly go back to this because in my hand a reddit post It must be now eight years ago or something like that was thinking about doing a PhD And someone said do it?

00:43:58: It's a lot of fun.

00:43:58: You really learn how to learn but watch out it takes you over.

00:44:04: And I learned three languages, i did so many different things and they couldn't stop learning.

00:44:10: In the end it feels a little bit you feel rushed like when you said aggressive auto-reduct?

00:44:18: Sometimes as well.

00:44:19: at that time going looking back... ...I found out very cool and it drew me into a PhD but.. ..I felt on this stage too You can keep up with the learning pace fun that you had during the PhD.

00:44:32: If, if you do then you broaden so widely at your expert and none right?

00:44:38: And I think they're echoing or tying it back to their conversation here.

00:44:43: i think thats a bit of challenge being an assistant professor That You need To somewhat stop broadening and really dig deeper and build The foot-of-the-tea in Your competence profile.

00:44:57: Yeah, I mean it.

00:44:58: I really understand

00:45:00: that there was a bad metaphor.

00:45:02: we see each other so let's easier.

00:45:04: but imagine the tea.

00:45:05: and this should be sort of tea tea.

00:45:09: And this would be say if you assume all capabilities on x-axis?

00:45:13: The y axis is the depth of your capability.

00:45:16: It should create a T form.

00:45:17: So you have basic knowledge in almost everything.

00:45:20: then one very Very deep knowledge.

00:45:23: and then people saying no actually need a pie

00:45:29: The apple pie?

00:45:30: No,

00:45:30: the Greek sign pi.

00:45:33: So you have two deep knowledge... Okay so whatever.

00:45:36: Three point one

00:45:37: for what?

00:45:39: Three point four capabilities!

00:45:44: Yeah I do start to empathize and feel like professors that just At some point don't are stuck in methods twenty years ago because that totally will be me when I survive this.

00:46:00: Like, i'll just stop at some point of it like no i'm sorry II play this game twenty years a go.

00:46:06: try to stay on top stuff but unlike this is the house to do and if he doesn't someone else has more time should figure this out.

00:46:16: im gonna stick to my Difference.

00:46:18: indifference and

00:46:20: maybe that's pretty much the most the fastest evolving method in a field of business economics.

00:46:28: Not if you ignore

00:46:32: anything, but don't try to publish it in journals that actually value methodological rigour.

00:46:38: You have a flip night estimator bless.

00:46:43: so

00:46:46: Yeah, I mean with that being said we're going to do a short one but it's looking like our usual hour long episode.

00:47:09: I need to admit, Philip you were right and it pains me a lot to say that.

00:47:22: But Tolkien sucks as a writer!

00:47:30: I'm bored... ...to hell at this point with his character development.

00:47:36: how one-dimensional everything is.

00:47:39: And maybe next episode i'll take back my apology because it got better again.

00:47:45: But if I hear or read one more elf song, i'm going to burn this book.

00:47:49: Where

00:47:50: are you right now?

00:47:50: Um...I

00:47:52: am after Moria so not even halfway through but it's getting tedious.

00:47:57: So my sponsor should

00:48:00: think about Middle Earth as a character and there is development in middle earth also over time.

00:48:06: but that's pretty much it.

00:48:08: yeah

00:48:08: yeah great cookie cutter Dwarfs and Elves, I can't stand it anymore.

00:48:17: I'm really close to just starting to read Stephen King anyway...

00:48:23: I've learned that Stephen king had a massive coke problem so bad he has to buy tampons for his nose to stop bleeding while typing!

00:48:35: Sorry for this unsolicited fun fact but Yeah, so if you ever see your male PhD with tampons be concerned.

00:48:46: Hooking on to that I didn't.

00:48:48: I was in the.

00:48:48: I never read Stephen King but i read there's like a post and pre-accident Stephen king.

00:48:53: And then people after he had some massive He got run over by car at Some point really badly hit By A car while walking his dog or something.

00:49:04: That kind of made him change His whole perspective stopped drinking and putting tampons up his nose.

00:49:09: that And it's like the price of it.

00:49:12: apparently according to Stephen King fans is that his writing just degraded.

00:49:17: They prefer His alcohol soaked tampon cocaine riding more to his sobriety writing.

00:49:27: But I don't know if thats deep lore or very well known.

00:49:32: From what i heard about cocaine, The last thing Like to do a sit down.

00:49:38: Yeah, it's pretty insane activity doing cocaine but apparently works and with that cocaine is the best place ever to stop this podcast And without being said thank you very much for listening as usual And as usual, we still do not have and probably will never much of a social presence.

00:50:08: Maybe one of you wants to create a TikTok channel for us?

00:50:13: That would be fun!

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00:50:36: just subscribe to your friends at family, intro and outro.

00:50:39: add music as usual might be by Philip.

00:50:44: if he finds time

00:50:45: I will work on it tomorrow.

00:50:46: Okay we'll see.

00:50:48: If its not It's the unmistakable dulcet tones of blue dot sessions And this episode was produced by me, Alexander Stahl.

00:51:00: We will see you next time!

00:51:02: Bye bye.